Interview by Dominic Di Francesco.
As the saying goes, with great power comes great responsibility. And for close to two decades, Robert Diggs a.k.a. The RZA has known great power and responsibility as the overseer of Hip-Hop’s incomparable Wu-Tang brand. Executing his Wu-print for success whilst managing the untamed personalities of Ol’ Dirty Bastard et al., RZA knows all too well that the brighter the limelight, the deeper the shadows.
Testing his resilience has been an increasingly ambiguous music industry model, the death of ODB, lawsuits from Wu-Tang’s more rapacious clansmen, and rampant infringements on Wu intellectual property the world over. And yet somehow, someway, the Wu-Tang brand is held in as high esteem today as it was in ‘97 when Wu-Tang Forever cemented the nine-man collective as music’s most influential rap group. All things considered, it would seem RZA has handled the power and responsibility with finesse.
Rhyme & Reason Magazine entered RZA’s chamber [ll] to discuss his management of the Wu-Tang brand, his current legal tussle with Ghostface Killah, ODB’s living legacy, his fake Twitter account, and his comedic turn in the new Adam Sandler flick, Funny People.
How would you describe the dynamic between Wu-Tang’s clansmen?
Sibling rivalries [laughing]. It’s all good.
Ghostface Killah is suing you for publishing royalties allegedly owed to him. How has that affected your relationship with Ghost?
On a personal level, he’s my brother. He’s got children with my sister, so… But on the business side I think he’s got the wrong impression about some things. Whether I win or lose the case – if I lose, I’m going to appeal – I think he’s got some bad people in his ear telling him some ideas that’s not correct. But he’s in a situation that he’s headed in and we’ve got to see what happens with the system. I love Ghostface, that’s my brother! I love him, love him, love him, love him!
And the lawsuit has no affect on your personal relationship with one another?
I don’t take it personal because business is usually somebody else in your ear. I got people on my side of the table telling me fuck them and they’ve got people telling them fuck me – [and] that’s only because they benefit from it. If you get two lawyers in a room, the only ones benefiting are those two lawyers, ‘cause they’re getting paid while you’re paying.
The lawyers have no personal investment in those situations. They’re just chasing the money…
Exactly. And that’s something that Hip-Hop artists better wake-up and realise; people are always going to promise you that the grass is greener on the other side – and you’ve got to walk all the way to the other side to realise it’s not greener. Green is green, muthafucka! You know what I mean?
Wu-Tang is such a recognisable, global brand. As the owner of the Wu name and logo, and with countless Wu affiliates running around the globe representing the brand, how do you go about protecting and maintaining your brand’s image?
I spend a lot of money every year on lawyers trying to protect and keep the copyright from being infringed on, but it’s hard because Wu-Tang is for the people, you know what I mean? Forget the Wu-Tang Clan using the brand how they want it, you’ve got people who just met me at a concert using the brand how they want it! [Laughing] Wu-Tang is such an open-hearted… me myself, I’m the only CEO who lets the world use his brand as their own. You cannot make a Coca-Cola t-shirt without dealing with Coke. But Wu-Tang is for the people. I try to fight it but at the same time I’ve seen thousands of kids with [Wu-Tang] tattoos… they can’t have my logo on their arm? Am I going to tell them to take it off? No. It’s a tattoo now. They have a real belief and faith in what we stand for and they look at us as a guiding light. So when you’ve got that kind of responsibility on your hands you’ve got to take the good with the bad – and that’s what I do.
That’s a great attitude to have. Now tell us about the premise of this latest album, Chamber Music. It seemingly came out of the blue…
It started as the idea of Wu-Tang lyricists with a live band [creating music] that RZA would’ve sampled if it was a record. That was the first, initial idea. As it progressed, we started doing cover songs. The we said, “You know what? Let’s just make new songs from scratch.” It kept evolving. Then it got to the point where we incorporated other MCs. We started this two years ago with the idea and now it finally comes to the market place. It wasn’t; “Quick, let’s do this.” It took a long time for it to be what it is.
So the album is driven by the live band element. With the decidedly electro direction of modern Hip-Hop, do you feel like the genre is missing that aspect of traditional live instrumentation?
I feel like, before Hip-Hop couldn’t use live instrumentation because bands weren’t making Hip-Hop – bands were making Rock, Funk, Blues, whatever. There wasn’t a generation of musicians who had Hip-Hop in mind, so we had to sample old breaks; we had to find a break in James Brown or find a Soul break. It’s funny because when I talk to these old producers they say that these breaks we sample are [their] mistakes. That’s funny, right? Their mistakes become our hit records. Then Hip-Hop went so electronic, as it is now, but the idea is that now we have people in the world – young people that grew up in the Hip-Hop generation – that are making music that sounds like Hip-Hop. Now we don’t have to sample it all the time, we can find a band to play it for us and make it all fresh and new.
And that’s what’s happening. Chamber Music is that; a bunch of people making Hip-Hop without sampling. The Roots have been at it. The Roots came in as a Hip-Hop band, but even when The Roots first started, their Hip-Hop wasn’t as Hip-Hopish – they were still playing a Jazzy type of [Hip-Hop]. I mean, Jazz and Blues are the foundations of all music; I won’t take that away from them. But now though, you’ve got young kids that grew up listening to the radio and hearing Hip-Hop all day and they’re musicians and they’re here now. [Although] I want to make sure I give credit to The Roots as well.
When Wu-Tang first burst onto the scene in the early ’90s, the music industry was cashed-up and glorious. How do those heydays compare with today?
Oh man, major difference! It’s an economical difference more than anything because the music’s still here – it’s everywhere. There’s more music out there now than ever. Kids are making music on their Garage Band, you know? The economics of it has changed so much and people are downloading it for free. That’s what changed the most about it – the economics. Before, an album like this probably would’ve cost a million dollars to make, but we did it with a very modest budget… very modest and we still got it done.
I have a theory that, with the continuing proliferation of illegal music downloads, it will eventually become standard for musicians to offer their music to consumers free-of-charge. Is that a scenario you can imagine?
Nah! That can’t happen… maybe it could, maybe it can’t. The reason I say that can’t happen is because it costs money to make music. To be in a band costs time and money, you know what I mean? I don’t mind people downloading but I think the more they download the more we’re going to have to find a way to give back to the artists – or the artists won’t be able to survive.
But perhaps those recording costs can be subsidised by corporate sponsorships and touring. The more people who download an artist’s music, the bigger their fan base, the larger crowds they’ll attract to their shows. And I keep hearing artists complain they aren’t seeing much money from album sales, that the bulk of their income is derived from touring…
I would agree, nowadays. In the old days [with] Wu-Tang we didn’t have to tour. We was getting big money from record companies, record deals, publishing deals, big commercial deals, movie soundtrack deals and shit. That meant you could make music and stay home. Now you’ve got to make music, make your ten songs so you can fuckin’ go on tour for a year.
I think there should be a medium where the artist definitely receives some money from the music he makes. I mean, the cost of making music has decreased – before it was like two grand a day in the studio, now you can do it on your laptop. To me, the quality of music is losing [out] because everything is so digital. If you play a vinyl record of a 70’s song versus nowadays, you hear a different kind of soul to it, something’s different about it, it’s got some groove about it. If you play your iPod and then play your vinyl… the same New Birth record I’ve got, called “Wild Flower”, on my iPod don’t sound the same as my vinyl. It loses something, but it is what it is.
You’re currently working in the studio with Ol’ Dirty Bastard’s son, Boy Jones. Is he a chip off the old block?
Oh man, he is. I’m going to share this with you and you can share it with the rest of the world. I thought, we all thought that ODB’s technique and attitude all came from drinking and drugs or something like that, right? You would think that… BUT NO! His son don’t do drugs or drink but there’s something in him. It’s something that [ODB] had in him that now I realise it was the genes… there’s a fuckin’ dirty gene in him, you know what I mean? [Laughing] The Boy Jones has got it, man.
So even you thought parts of ODB’s off-kilter character were the result of the alcohol and drugs?
There were certain things that I thought were the result of the drugs, some of the faces and some of the things he did. But when I look at his son, he’s doing the same faces and shit, yo. There were even some things that I misread.
Outside of music you’re building quite an acting portfolio. You’re appearing in the upcoming Judd Apatow [The 40-Year-Old Virgin] film Funny People – alongside Adam Sandler, Seth Rogan and Eric Bana. As an Australia-based magazine I have to ask; how was it working alongside Eric Bana?
Oh man, I’m a fan of Eric Bana; Munich was great, Troy was great, Hulk – I liked that one also. I never knew he was funny, yo! I know now from hanging out on set and talking to him that he was actually on TV in Australia as a comedian. I never knew he was funny… and he is funny as shit! I told him to his face, like, “Yo, I never thought you were funny. I never would have believed it. You’re a funny muthafucker!” He’s a cool kid, man. I was happy to meet him. I have no scenes with him but I did meet him on the set and throughout all the press [commitments] and all that. He’s a real good gentleman.
Of course, Funny People is a comedy. Which do you find more challenging: dramatic or comedic roles?
Oh, it’s more challenging doing the comedic. I haven’t seen Funny People yet, so I’ve got to wait and see the results and see what people say. I hope it comes off well to everybody. It was a challenge. I‘m a rapper and can freestyle all day, Seth Rogen and these fuckin’ guys tell jokes all fuckin’ day like a rapper would rap all day – and these guys are the best. They’re funny muthafuckers, man.
I’ve noticed that you’re a big Twitterer…
Me? I Twitter a lot? No, it’s not me. [Laughing] Hey, don’t believe everything you Twit! It’s not my page. But I’m an artist – so it’s probably someone running that shit. Don’t believe everything you Twit, yo!
Wu-Tang’s ‘Chamber Music’ is out now via Shock Records.